Zainab

Gosh, Martin. We’re a day away from the World Cup final [at the time of recording]. Exciting times, right? I know it’s going to be difficult for you. It’s not England!

Martin

I’m very excited, it’s all going to come to its culmination! I wanted England, I wanted Mexico. And then I wanted Morocco. None of those three teams have made it. So I will just be watching it as an avid football fan and hoping that the best team wins.

Zainab

Fantastic. So that viral video of you, featuring the now famous pairing, “it’s coming home” followed by Falasteen Hurra (“Free Palestine”), has been viewed at least 5.5 million times the last time I checked, and that’s just one video on Twitter. How does it feel to be an icon at World Cup 2022?

Martin

Imagine you’re just going about your daily life minding your own business. And then all of a sudden you have 850 messages on every social media platform, including from people that you haven’t seen in years. It’s really bizarre.

I left the England v Wales match full of adrenaline, you know. There was a camera crew. They saw me with my England shirt, the ghutra on my head, and the England flag painted on my face. They probably thought he looks absolutely ridiculous – we should get him on TV. Yeah, so it just kind of took off. I wasn’t expecting it.

In fact, you know, “never read the comments” is probably the most important rule you should ever stick to if you go viral. I did read those comments. Some people are like “he’s a plant”, “he’s actually a fair-skinned Qatari”, “he’s not from England at all”. Those are just the ones I can repeat. It’s been a whirlwind.

But more than anything, I’ve been touched by all the support that people have shown, including people from Palestine, who’ve written to me or commented on the video. I think we can see by the support generally at this World Cup in Qatar that, as John Pilger said, “Palestine is still the issue.”

@footballjoe This England fan says Free Palestine 🇵🇸 🎥 Al Jazeera #fyp #palestine #israel #qatar #qatar2022 #englandfootball #itscominghome #threelions #soccertiktok #soccerboy #footballedit #aljazeera #fypシ #fypage ♬ original sound – FootballJOE

Zainab

I do sense that there’s been a shift in consciousness on this issue, even prior to the World Cup. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International both released reports in the past year or two, calling out Israeli apartheid. I think that’s the first time that’s happened. Why do you think it was so important to put Palestine on the agenda?

Martin

I think we’re seeing a disconnect between local governments in the Arab world, and their relations with Israel, and what people on the ground are saying and feeling. If we’re talking about the UK or the European context, I really think there’s been a shift in attitudes and even a softening in mainstream media, which a couple of decades ago was just ardently 100% staunchly pro-Israel. Many years ago, people who would talk about Palestine were often put into one little box. “You’re only complaining because you’re Muslim,” or “you’re only complaining because you’re a far-left trot”. That’s not the case anymore.

Zainab

And you’ve been to Palestine yourself. What was that like?

Martin

Palestine? Wow. Palestine was an amazing experience for me. I went about four or five years ago. It touched me on an emotional level, in a big way. You know, I went there, because I’d always wanted to visit. I was shown around by a local Palestinian guide, I went and met many Palestinian people, and I’m not shy – if they don’t speak the same language as me, I still try and get into conversations.

You just see an incredible strength in the Palestinian people in a way that is so inspiring. They face some of the harshest conditions, their lives are made to be very, very difficult. I spoke with one guy, and it’s something very simple but touching, he’s like, I’d love to be able to take my kids to the zoo, but I’ve not been able to get a permit, because the zoo’s on the other side of the separation wall. Going there and seeing things for yourself, with your own eyes, is a completely different kettle of fish.

Zainab

Were there any towns that stood out to you?

Martin

One of the areas that, for sure, was the most impactful was Hebron. You have the Palestinian markets at the bottom with all the traders, then you have literally above them, the settlers. So when I went there with my guide, he took me up as far as he could go, to the entrance of the settlement. And, you know, he is from Palestine and his great, great, great grandparents were too, and he’s not allowed in. I just kind of rock up as a tourist with a British passport, and they let me in, which for a start made me think “there’s something wrong about that, but okay”.

So you go in there and… all of Palestine has gone through great injustice, but Hebron felt like next level. And then, you know, we started to talk to people, some of the shop sellers in the market, and they tell stories about the settlers throwing faeces and urine down from up there, and all sorts of things about police brutality. People being taken away in the middle of the night. Kids not just being attacked, but dying. Just absolutely heartbreaking.

Zainab

Really heartbreaking. Okay, so back to football for a moment. We all know the stereotypes around being a football fan, not least an England football fan! Always getting drunk and causing mayhem. Just wondering what your perspective is on that from the stands?

Martin

I’ve been going to England football matches for about 20 years, possibly more. You know, a lot of the time the loudest or most extreme example of something is the one that’s the most newsworthy, but that’s not really representative. When we’re talking about England fans specifically, the vast majority are well behaved, they don’t get into fights, they don’t get in trouble.

Over the last 20 years or so, I’ve seen a change. For a start, we’ve got a much more diverse football team now, but we’ve also got more diverse fans going into the game. The British media likes to make out that the only fans in the world that have a problem with hooliganism is England, and that’s not true. England is not even in the top three worst. It did have a great problem with it in the 1980s and beforehand, but we don’t have the same levels today as many parts of Latin America, as Indonesia, as many others. That’s why it was great to have read the news that there wasn’t a single arrest of any British fans at Qatar. I was there. People were just having a good time, smiling, laughing, just supporting their football team.

In particular, I want to say, the Moroccan and the Iranian fans. Wow! You know, I was lucky enough to go to a game featuring both teams. Let’s talk about the England v Iran game. 6-1 down. And the Iranian fans were still jumping up and down, they were singing… I don’t think there’s many nations in the world that when they’re 6-1-down are still drowning out their opponents, and they were, so all credit to them. That was fantastic.

The World Cup is kind of like this international party atmosphere, it’s people getting together, having coffees, exchanging ideas. You know, I made a friend at a World Cup in South Africa that I then ended up working with. Qatar is very much a coffee culture kind of place and I love coffee, you know, having a sit down and just talking about the world and talking about life is amazing.

Zainab

I love coffee too, so we’ll need to meet somewhere in the world.

Martin

Probably, let’s do that.

Zainab

With football at home, there have been instances of racism, particularly when it comes to Black players, or the problem of Islamophobia. How do you reconcile those kinds of contradictions in football?

Martin

Yeah, I mean, it’s very interesting. I’ve had messages from many British Muslims directly, and somebody said they didn’t feel that they could support England until my video. Pretty mind-blowing to me. There’s definitely been issues, like at the Euros, although I think that actually says more about the organising and lack of policing at that particular event.

I’m very aware of the fact that I wouldn’t necessarily see a lot of racism. I don’t want to be the white guy that just says, there’s no racism here. What I can say for sure, as somebody who used to work for a social media company, a lot of that is because you’re clicking on things, and we’re being polarised, and extreme positions are being given a platform that they wouldn’t have got before.

I remember when BBC Panorama did a special on hooliganism after England fans were banned from travelling to the Euro 2004 decider in Turkey. Fast forward 20 odd years later, and you’ve got multiple England fans, shouting “Free Palestine” on TV. That, to me, is indicative of how things have changed. Is there racism among some of our fans? Sure. That’s because England fans are a reflection of society. I think some of these things are not necessarily a football issue, they’re more of a society issue. And so whatever problems are in society, well, obviously, they’re going to be reflected when you get a stadium of 80,000 people together.

Zainab

What team do you support at home, by the way?

Martin

I’m a Liverpool fan, for my sins.

Zainab

Liverpool fans will always have the exemplary legacy of campaigning at Hillsborough for 20 years. Could you tell us a little bit about that, or how football intersects with politics in that way?

Martin

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am a ‘wool’ as they call me in Liverpool, ‘a wooly back’. So I’m from the outskirts in Cheshire. People back home are incredibly political, especially in Liverpool where I spent a lot of my youth, in a way that they aren’t in the rest of the country. So for a very working class, socialist city, like Liverpool, to have the kind of issues that we had with Hillsborough, which is not just an incredible human tragedy, with the loss of 97 lives now. But also the terrible injustice that happened right afterwards, whether that’s from disgusting rag newspapers (I won’t even mention the name of) maligning Liverpool fans, playing on all sorts of negative stereotypes about Liverpool fans – stealing money off corpses, urinating on policemen – these were 100% lies. I was very young at the time, but there was somebody at my school who lost a family member, so this is something that’s personal for me as well. Finally, it was given away that it wasn’t the fans, it was the police that were at fault. Now, there’s been no criminal proceedings against any police officers in particular, but yeah, it was a big deal.

The people of Liverpool are very strong people. They are salt of the earth kind of people. They care about other people, they are collectivists. Whether it’s the Dockers Liverpool Football Club, which has had a strong association with socialism over the years. Or whether it’s Bob Shankly, talking about his favourite type of socialism, or Robbie Fowler lifting up his shirt after a goal to show support with the striking Dockers, you know, all the way to today. Different views on modern-day politics compared to the rest of the country, different voting patterns, when it comes to party politics or Brexit, then all the way to today where we’ve got the Egyptian king – Mo Salah, Mo Salah.

Liverpool is already famous for being a very multicultural and accepting city, but ever since he’s arrived, the rates of Islamophobia are reduced – what better way to prove or to show that football can be a uniting force. Mo Salah prays on the field, which for many people is the first time they’ve ever seen a Muslim pray. So I think that football has a way of breaking down barriers, of bringing people together. Having one of the best players in the world, come on to the pitch, score a goal, and then get down and pray in front of everyone is really touching. And that builds relations that no politician, no PR company, nobody can do.

Zainab

True! Returning to the World Cup for a moment. There’s been significant attention on human rights issues and workers’ rights issues in Qatar, and I guess the scale of these kinds of issues are unbelievable. What were your thoughts on World Cup 2022 being held there?

Martin

Football is the beautiful game and it’s a global sport. So if we really want to be taken seriously in saying that it is a sport around the world, that means we need to host tournaments and games around the world, and we need to accept that not every country is the same. Some countries have different beliefs. Some countries have different religions. Some countries have different ways of viewing the world.

I think Qatar gets spoken about in a way that other places don’t, you know. I don’t remember all these cries of boycotts, or “don’t show the opening ceremony” when it comes to the Beijing Olympics or Russia. All sorts of potential issues there, the treatment of the Uyghur people in particular.

We’ve really picked on Qatar. It’s a small country, but a rich country too. It’s also a country that the UK and Europe does a lot of business with, we all get our gas from Qatar. So why are we picking on football – is it just because football is a soft target? So are we saying that we should not put the opening ceremony on, but our politicians continue to receive financial donations from Qatar? Germany itself did a 15-year gas supply deal right after that famous photo of the footballers covering their mouth. So what are we expecting exactly? I just don’t think football fans need to be the ones that suffer for their politicians being the ones that are doing all sorts of deals.

Zainab

Did anyone buy you a ticket to the World Cup final?

Martin

No, no one bought me a ticket sadly!

Zainab

What next for you? Are you going to write for the platform again, sometime?

Martin

Yeah, I mean, I’ll just keep on doing my thing. I think I will write for the platform again, that’s a good idea. I miss my creative outlets. I will just have to find the right topic!

Zainab

We can’t wait. Thank you so much for your time.

This interview took place on 17 December 2022. This is a shortened transcript edited by Zainab Rahim.